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Tradition In Action’s makes the Catholic observation that women began revealing their legs as part of a general trend toward immodest fashion
Aw, Shucks farm boy Patrick Coffin comments – “Boy howdy, why would anyone think Trads are kooky puritans obsessed with sex in general, “feminine purity” in particular?”
And now we have yoga pants with every nook, cranny and crevice carefully defined and displayed for all the world to see. Why not just take them off? You might as well. The only purpose yoga pants serve is to make nakedness legal by giving your skin a different color.
As, shucks Patrick! Did I just reveal myself a sex obsessed Puritan? Boy howdy, that’s too bad. Hey, I hate to beat a dead horse, and I don’t want to be stubborn as a mule, but we seem to have a porn problem in our sex obsessed society. I don’t think it’s the “Trads” (don’t like ‘em much, do ya) that are the problem.
America spends $3,100 every second on porn. 120,000,000 people are now using porn in the $15,000,000,000 industry. Leading to an “unplanned pregnancy” “problem” and then to its ugly cousin, the abortion problem, like pigs to slop. 650,000 in U.S., 42,500,000 worldwide – more deaths than Covid by orders of magnitude.
It would be nice if Catholics could unify around the *liberating* (not kooky, not obsessed), liberating message of true freedom in Jesus Christ to live as we ought, rather than as slaves to the world and its fashions.
Btw, Patrick, check out a TLM mass some time, preferably SSPX. There you’ll see the female obsessed wearing beautiful clothing and a veil, called a Mantilla, over their hair. True beauty is there, Patrick. Look to the Blessed Mother next to the Altar and notice her attire – true beauty. We should show the world the way out, not follow them further in to their depravity. What we have is better than what they have.
Not to disregard the beauty of traditional wear, but “every nook, cranny and crevice carefully defined and displayed for all the world to see”? Yikes, that is creepily specific. Yoga pants have about the same amount of definition as does a Barbie doll, sounds like one’s imagination is filling in the gaps…
We can decide our own choices and fashions in accordance with our faith and belief in Christian modesty but still treat other women with respect if they do not share the same beliefs. It is our role to live our faith and not be tempted, but we should still live as Christ and live amongst the world and not be like the Pharisees who criticized his associations with the tax collectors and prostitutes as if our own faith gives us superiority over others. There is not one instance of Jesus criticizing or shaming those He came to save. We should understand that what might be offensive to us is normal to others and not meant to be as sexually motivated as it may appear to a more modest culture and is mostly because it is famously comfortable.
While we may not agree with these fashion choices, we should never give women direct responsibility for men’s thoughts for wearing clothes that are appropriate in that culture in that instance (i.e. the bikini is culturally appropriate at the beach but not in the grocery store). They are simply wearing what they believe is appropriate to wear. The argument to the contrary, that women are responsible for the thoughts of men in these situations where they are simply wearing what is culturally appropriate, is the defense of rapists and monsters. We can do better than to see the outline of legs and imagine “every nook, cranny, and crevice.”
Michael Norris, sorry if the description offends you. The reality offends me even more.
I think it is really dishonest to pretend this is not happening in our hyper-sexualized culture. At one time, perhaps, when the pot was still lukewarm and not yet bubbling … yeah, maybe I’d have given your position credence. Not any more.
Btw, at this point the wear I’m describing that reveals “nook, cranny, crevice” … (I forgot to mention fat rolls and cottage cheese rough spots) … is not really even sexual any more. It is borderline ludicrous. to tell you the truth, I feel sorry for the women wearing these things. Dumb. The women I know are truly liberated and free, strong in themselves, beautiful in all the right ways.
Bottom line, as Catholics (I assume if you’re here you are one) we should agree this is not how God intended to frame the beauty of a woman. As I said before – look at the statue of our Blessed Mother beside the Altar. That’s the model of beauty. And she is fully clothed in all her natural God given Grace filled glory from crowned head to sandaled toe crushing Satan.
This pornified thing the Larry Flynt porn society has given us is not good for women no less than it is not good for the men. Women’s true glory is not advanced by increasingly revealing themselves, now to the world in spandex skin tight yoga pants. Sorry, Michael Norris … I just can’t agree with you on that one.
First off, thanks to the moderator for approving the previous post. I admit it’s a bit contrarian.
“Sorry if the description offends, the causation offends more” is the equivalent of “Not sorry that something admittedly offensive was said, my personal opinions give me justification for whatever I say.” This is a public site, one that promotes the traditional Catholic way of life and while some may hide behind anonymity, we are all representatives of Christ to the rest of the world.
It is not that I disagree with your assessment of society or the rapid descent into sin, but can you honestly picture any saint referencing women with “fat rolls and cottage cheese lumps” or calling them dumb, or describing anybody’s body in such a humiliating way. You can write anything from the comfort of an armchair, but this is just as public as yelling on the street.
It seems you misunderstood the response, it is not a disagreement about modesty, but rather about our approach to being in this world as good examples. If we think that we should impose our faith and standards on others, ridicule and mock them if they don’t follow, and angrily retreat from the world, then we are not being the good examples that they will want to follow.
While we may appreciate the beauty of traditional modesty, wouldn’t it be unrealistic to expect the rest of the Western world to follow the same standards of pre-Medieval fashion? This is not new, I’m sure the cleavage and tights of the 1700s would cause this same type of outrage. We may even claim the moral high ground and say that society should move to such standards, but we do this by being good examples, not through anger and outrage. Even when angry at sin, we should show compassion, respect, and understanding to sinners, pray for them and lead them to Christ. We are Catholics, not Jihadists.
First of all, recall what I was responding to: “Did the revealing of women’s legs in the early 20th century begin the descending path toward immodesty in women”? That was the premise. Then the response from Patrick Coffin, very similar to yours – “all you Catholic Trads who have a problem with women’s dress actually have a problem with yourself – because you are sex obsessed Puritans (in your response – possible rapist)”. Relax and stop being so judgemental. (paraphrase).
Second: My response was in the affirmative to that premise. Yes, it quantifiably did begin the descending path to immodesty. I would even go so far as to say we have now entered into the area of sexual debasement.
Third: I think it is really telling that you relegate modesty to something that is pre-medieval, which was between 500-1500 AD, which puts your timeline of modesty back at some point prior to the time of Constantine – unachievable iow. Actually, it is a problem of every age going back to the beginning of time. The OT is filled with examples of immodesty and its close cousin sexual depravity as an underlying theme.
Fourth: I see no reason whatsoever we can’t evangelize our hyper-sexualized world with spiritual medicine – Christian or Pagan. It’s been done before and more recently than the Medieval. We are inoculating the world against some stupid Covid virus, why can’t we Christians inoculate the sick souls who have lost their way against spiritual maladies? We have the Pearl of Great Price. That means something. These lost souls have a “God sized hole in their heart” and many of them are filling it with the Demonic who are more than happy to fill the void.
Fifth: As to the Saints using language similar to mine … read the OT Prophets, Major and Minor who cast fire against their perverse generations. Can you, in turn, imagine a Saint being faced with immodesty and sexual perversity at the level we live in and NOT say something? Once again – you don’t like the language … I don’t like the reality. I walk around town with my teenage boys, and that is standard viewing on every street. I saw one the other day that was borderline pornographic – blatant, in your face. So we have our talks, sure. But the topic here was … *immodesty, and what led us to this point* …. Just a little leg was the premise Patrick Coffin scoffed at that. And now, so do you. I don’t.
Sixth: What Christ offers is not just for Trads and a select group of Gnostic “Puritans”. God offers us something so simple and profound and for everyone: to liberate us and return us to the state of soul and being which God intended for us (all of us throughout the world) when He created us out of time. God offers to exchange our enslavement and unhappiness for freedom and true joy; pornography for Love as just one specific example; and ultimately this deal (Salvation) God offers is for all eternity.
Lastly, as to my explicit language – as with any soul’s conversion, it begins (must begin) with conviction of sin. To be convicted of sin, one must be faced with the honest assessment of what it is and how far away from God’s will it truly is. Yoga pants are but one obvious example in this genus of sin, but far from the only one. Your response like Patrick Coffin’s is a classic example as to why it is necessary to be specific – “no big deal”. It is.
It is time to stop worrying about “giving offense” and start worrying about saving souls. We Catholics are to be the leaven of heaven in the world (Matt 13:33; Luke 13: 20,21) and that means we bring not just conviction of sin but deliverance from it into all righteousness through the Holy Gospel, which is the Good News of Jesus Christ.
Part of the world’s shamelessness is shaming those who cling to Christ Jesus and the Ten Commandments. The evil doers are forever pointing their fingers, throwing up their hands, having hysterics over those who will not serve them and their interests. Heroic virtue for us must be now the stuff of everyday, ordinary life, not just for those special times of trial as in days of old.
I think of T.S. Eliot who described the wreckage of World War I world. Today such evil is omnipresent and ubiquitous :
“We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats’ feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar
Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralyzed force, gesture without motion;
… This is the dead land
This is cactus land
… The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms
In this last of meeting places
We grope together
And avoid speech
Gathered on this beach of the tumid river
… This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.”
Yes, whimpers of shameless lies. God help us!